白夜灯塔

采采流水,蓬蓬远春;所思不远,但为平生。

腐勒季终访谈片段 2

马克。

非鲤勿食:

这两天各路访谈雪崩般地出现,官方各种撒糖,我觉得我都要幸福得窒息了=v= 于是抽空又翻了一些,大家继续同乐~






以下跟上次的片段出自同一个访谈。原文地址


When you went to Siouxsie Sioux about doing a song for the finale, what did you tell her that she wanted? 


Bryan Fuller: It was interesting. She was like, "I want to write this song, and what are the things I should really be thinking about?" And I was like, "this is a love story. A love story between a full-fledged psychopath and someone who has nascent psychopathic abilities." Actually, Hannibal Lecter is not a psychopath; he's something else entirely. But it's a love relationship between two men: one of them is a cannibal, and one of them understands those cannibalistic instincts all too well. What she came back with was "Love Crime," and it was so Bond-ian, and it felt like a big, sweeping song, that, when I heard it, I said, "This has gotta go over the fight in the finale."


当你找Siouxsie Sioux谈为季终写歌时,你告诉她有什么要求了吗?


腐勒:这件事挺有趣的。她说:“我想写这首歌,所以我需要知道些什么?”然后我说:“这是个爱情故事。关于一个彻头彻尾的深井冰和一个有深井冰潜质的人的爱情故事。”其实呢,汉尼拔·莱克特并不是个深井冰;他属于完全不同的范畴。但这是两个男人间的爱情关系:一个是食人者,另一个十分了解这种食人的本能。然后她拿出了《Love Crime》,超有邦德风格,感觉就是一首壮大、席卷一切的歌曲。我听了之后,说:“这歌必须得放在季终的最后一战里。”


【这么一说,不觉得Skyfall也超适合放在结尾的嘛(死




You talked before about NBC really indulging you over the years, and your own lack of interest in the procedural stuff. In a million years, would they have allowed you to come in at the start of the series with the season 3 aesthetic? Or did you have to slowly immerse them in the water and heat it up or else they'd have never let you get that far? 


Bryan Fuller: Absolutely. We had to earn their trust. We had to be able to say, "This is the procedural version of the show." If the show was a huge hit, and really connected with an audience in a way that "The Blacklist" did, they would have said, "No, this is the format of the show, and you're keeping to it." But because the show wasn't a huge hit, and had a very niche but passionate audience, I think they saw no harm in allowing me to play.


你说过NBC这些年来纵容了你和你对程式化的东西兴趣缺缺。你觉得他们有可能会让你从一开始就用第三季的调调来做这个剧吗?还是说你需要慢慢地请君入瓮,不然他们永远不会让你拍到现在?


腐勒:必然的。我们必须得到他们的信任。我们得能够说的出口:“这是剧集的程式化版本。”如果这个剧一炮而红,并像《罪恶黑名单》那样建立起一批观众群,那他们就会说:“不,这是整个剧集的格式,你得保留它。”然而由于这个剧并没有一炮而红,并有了一批小众但热情的观众群,我想他们认为让我放手去搞是无伤大雅的。




Hannibal is a character who's had a long and successful run in other media. Why do you think this one didn't connect with a larger audience?


Bryan Fuller: I wanted to be very authentic to the tone of the books, and very authentic to Thomas Harris. And I think there is a version of Hannibal, say if you cast James Spader, or Hugh Grant as Hannibal Lecter, and leaned into the slightly campier, more accessible aspects of the films that we began to see in the later movies, then that might have connected in a way that pop culture understood Hannibal. But I chose to go back to the source material and make it as genuine to the source material and my fanfiction approach as I could, and give it a level of sobriety and dignity, even I look at the show as a very black comedy. It was very literary, it was very pretentious, and very niche. I can't say I'm terribly surprised that it didn't find an audience. Initially, there was a lot of fatigue with the character, and people felt the character was played out, and I heard from countless people how they weren't even interested in seeing the show because they weren't interested in Hannibal Lecter again. But the casting of Mads Mikkelsen as Hannibal Lecter gave us, for me, the best version of Hannibal Lecter. But perhaps not the most commercial.


汉尼拔是一个在其它媒体上取得过长时间成功的角色。你认为这个版本为什么没有得到一个更大的观众群?


腐勒:我想要非常忠实于原著小说的基调,和托马斯·哈里斯的基调。我想是有这么一个版本的汉尼拔、比如要是你选了James Spader【注:《罪恶黑名单》的男主演,另外也是妇联2的奥创XD】、或者Hugh Grant来演汉尼拔,然后使用更接近于系列后期几部电影的那种略装模作样、更亲和的元素,那么或许会跟大众文化所理解的汉尼拔挂上钩。但是我选择重新回到最原始的源材料中去,并尽可能地和这些原材料、以及我自己的同人角度保持一致,同时给它一种高贵庄重的感觉。虽然我是把这个剧当成黑色喜剧来看的。它很文艺、它很高冷、它也很小众。我不能说我对它没有观众这件事感到特别惊讶。一开始,这个角色是有很多劣势的,人们觉得这个角色已经被演乏了,而我也听不计其数的人说过他们不想看这个剧,因为他们对汉尼拔·莱克特不再感兴趣了。但是对我来说,选择麦兹·米克森作为汉尼拔,是给了我们汉尼拔·莱克特的最佳版本。但或许算不上最商业化的版本。


【看完这个访谈我觉得腐勒爸爸好黑啊哈哈哈哈哈,为拍同人也是拼了hhhh




以下是Variety网站的访谈,原文地址


Fans already seem to be speculating about Will and Hannibal’s intentions in that final scene — from your perspective, was Will hoping they’d die from that fall, or planning for them to survive? What was going through his mind in those last moments?


All season long, it had been developing this story of Will’s realization, even as he is going into Europe to track down his friend, that his agenda — as Chiyoh (Tao Okamoto) points out — is “I have to kill Hannibal in order to not become Hannibal.” And he gets so fed up with the machinations of the relationship and Hannibal sawing his head open and trying to get at his brain that he’s just like “f–k it, I’m done with you, I’m walking away.” And yet, as he states in the finale, that was all a ruse to get Hannibal to turn himself in. And so it was kind of a band-aid on a bigger wound, and then when Will is pulled back in to the Red Dragon arc, he’s asking Bedelia, “is Hannibal in love with me?” and Bedelia is saying “is this a ‘can’t live with him, can’t live without him?'” And essentially it is, and that’s sort of the conclusion Will comes to at the end, “I can’t live with him, I can’t live without him. This is the scenario where the least amount of people can die,” meaning, “the two of us.”


I think when Hannibal says, “This is all I ever wanted for you; this is all I ever wanted for both of us,” Will is forced to acknowledge that what they just experienced was actually a beautiful thing. He lingers on that feeling of, “it was beautiful and I will desire it again, and I will be chasing this feeling.” And as he said to Hannibal earlier, “I may not be able to save myself, and that’s just fine.” I feel like we were very honest with the audience in terms of saying exactly what Will does at the end — we said it a few times.


貌似粉丝们已经开始各种揣测最后一幕中威尔和汉尼拔的本意了——在你看来,威尔是希望他们死在这一落中,还是打算让他们生还?在最后的时间里他都想了些什么?


这一整季其实都在讲述威尔领悟的过程,即使他追着他的朋友去了欧洲,而他的计划——如千代指出的一样——是“我得杀了汉尼拔,以避免我自己成为汉尼拔”。然后他受够了这段关系中的尔虞我诈以及汉尼拔要对他开颅食脑,于是他就“艹你妹,咱俩完了,我得走。”然而,在季终他表示,那一切都只是让汉尼拔自首的策略。于是那其实只是杯水车薪。当威尔在红龙篇再次被拉下水时,他问比迪丽娅“汉尼拔爱着我吗?”然后比迪丽娅说的是“不能与他共生,却也无法独活,是这样吗?”老实说是这样没错,而那差不多就是威尔最后得到的结论。“我不能跟他共生,我也不能独活,这个方案能让最少的人死亡”,意思就是,“我们两个。”


我觉得当汉尼拔说出“这就是我想给你的全部;这就是我想给我们的全部”时,威尔是被迫认识到他们刚刚共同经历的确实是个美丽的体验。他回味着这种感觉“它真的很美,我会再次渴求它,然后我会追逐这种感觉”。而就如他之前对汉尼拔说的,“我可能救不了我自己,而这没关系。”我认为我们在关于威尔最后都干了些什么这件事上,对观众是完全诚实的——我们说了好几遍呢。




As you said, Bedelia and Will actually discussed whether he and Hannibal are in love with each other in the penultimate episode, and it feels like the show spelled out the answer fairly clearly, even if it’s not an overtly sexual love — but where do you think Will lands on that, in the end?


I think that’s what motivates the leap, is his realization that Hannibal was right all along. As beautiful as that felt to him, he understands that it is a place that who he is will not survive in, and so his option is essentially to pull the plug on the whole story, and that’s the only way he’s going to win himself back. It’s a sad gesture in so many ways, and it brings an interesting question to the strength of friendships. In my personal experience, I would say I’ve experienced more hurtful betrayals by friends than I have lovers, and friendships I’ve had in my life have been every bit as intense as relationships I’ve had that have been sexual, so there’s an aspect of that where nothing quite hurts as badly as a friend betraying you. In an infidelity, that type of betrayal between lovers, you understand the human nature and that the heart wants what it wants, and the draw of sexuality and the temptation of that, so you get how human nature is the betrayer in that situation. When it comes to a friend and it’s not about genitals, it’s about the souls, it cuts much deeper.


像你说的,比迪丽娅和威尔在倒数第二集里确实地讨论了他跟汉尼拔是不是彼此相爱,并且看起来这个剧已经把答案明明白白地写出来了,即使这不是一段明显的肉欲之爱——不过你觉得威尔最后的定位在哪里?


我认为这就是跳崖的动机,即是他领悟到汉尼拔自始至终都是正确的。虽然对他来说这再怎么美,他也明白他的本我不可能在这种地方生存,于是他的选项就成了终结这个故事,这是他赢回自己的唯一方法。各种意义上这都是个悲哀的选择,同时也带来了一个有趣的问题:友谊到底能有多坚固。根据我的个人经验,我得说我经历过的更伤人的背叛是来自于朋友而不是情人,而且我生命中的经历过的友情就跟那些爱欲之情同样热烈。于是其中就有这么一个方面,就是说没有任何事能比被一个朋友背叛更伤人的。遇上出轨,爱人间的一种背叛,你理解了人性的本能以及一颗心会渴望它所渴望的、还有性欲的引力以及随之而来的诱惑,于是你在这种情况下了解了背叛者的人性本质。而若是一个朋友,这则跟性器没有任何关系,这是关于灵魂的,这会伤得更深。




What’s going through Hannibal’s mind when Will takes them over the cliff?


I think he’s thinking, “Oh s–t, I’m falling!” [Laughs.] No, in seriousness, I think he’s feeling that embrace and that’s the first thing that he’s feeling, and even as he’s plunging into the Atlantic, he’s first and foremost thinking about the man he’s holding onto and the man who’s holding onto him.


在威尔让他们两个掉下悬崖的时候,汉尼拔脑子里想的是什么?


我认为他想的是“卧槽,我掉下去了!”(笑)不,说真的,我认为他在感受那个拥抱,而这是他首先感受到的东西。即使在他坠入大西洋时,他的第一个也是最重要的念头仍然是那个被他拥抱也拥抱着他的男人。




How are chances of a revival looking at this point? Have you put a pin into it until after season one of “American Gods” is done, or are there still active conversations?


Martha De Laurentiis is investigating financing for a feature film and there’s any of a number of scenarios. Shows have come back years after they’ve been cancelled, and I’m never saying never because … as creatively daunting as it would be to tell that fourth season of Will and Hannibal’s story, I’m very excited by that challenge. If I’m terrified by something creatively, because I fear my ability to pull it off, that inspires me to work harder in order to accomplish it. So I’m inspired by it and I’m inspired by Mads Mikkelsen and Hugh Dancy as my partners on this show. That final exchange between Hannibal and Will, Hugh and I wrote that while we were talking about what the scene should be. I was like, “It’s very simple, it’s Hannibal saying this to Will…” and Hugh was like, “and Will would say ‘it’s beautiful,'” and I was like, “I’m just writing this down now and we’re gonna film that.” I miss that collaboration and I would love to engage in it again.


到了这一步,剧集复活的可能性有多少?你是准备在拍完《美国众神》第一季之前把它暂时搁置,还是说目前仍然有商谈正在进行?


玛莎·德·劳伦提斯正在寻找电影的资金来源。这里有好几种可能性。有些剧集在被砍几年之后再重出江湖,我绝不会说“绝不”,因为……虽然讲述威尔和汉尼拔在第四季的故事从创作角度讲令人望而却步,我却对这个挑战感到兴奋。如果我被创作相关的事情吓到,因为我担心自己的能力能否胜任,那只会激发我去更加努力地完成它。这个故事给了我灵感,我的合作伙伴麦兹·米克森和休·丹西给了我灵感。汉尼拔和威尔最后的对话,是休和我在讨论最后一幕时写出来的。当时我说:“很简单的,汉尼拔对威尔这么说……”然后休就说:“威尔就会说‘it's beautiful’”然后我说:“我要把它记下来,咱们就这么拍。”我很怀念那样的合作,而我会很愿意再度置身其中。


【后面腐勒爸爸还说这个剧就是他作为一名fannibal的同人文,他很高兴能跟其他的同人作者分享交流……XD




以下是IGN网站的访谈,原文地址


IGN: You’ve had a long term plan for this show for quite a while, but at what point did you know that the Red Dragon story specifically was going to end this way?


Fuller: About half way through the season, we knew that the great conclusion for Hannibal and Will, with everything they’ve experienced this season, would be for them to actually kill the Red Dragon together as two jackals taking down a wildebeest. That felt very organic. Then we started talking about Moriarty and Sherlock over Reichenbach Falls and how that was an interesting direction to go for us, because Sherlock survived. You get your cake and get to eat it too, where you have a big, epic finale where there are gasps and apparent losses of lives and then you are able to continue telling that story by just simply saying “they survived the falls.”


你一直以来都对这个剧集有长远的策划,不过你是从什么时候知道红龙篇将会如此结束的?


腐勒:差不多是这一季进行到一半的时候,我们知道了根据威尔和汉尼拔在整部剧里的经历,他们的大结局将会是像两只豺狼猎杀一头牛羚一般杀死红龙。那感觉很自然。接着我们讨论了莫里亚蒂和夏洛克掉下赖兴巴赫瀑布的情节,以及那会是一个非常有趣的走向,因为夏洛克活下来了。鱼和熊掌兼得。你有了一个壮阔浩大、令人屏息的终曲,而且貌似有人失去了生命,然后你又能够继续把故事讲下去,只需加上一句“他们生还了。”




IGN: Not that it wasn’t a clear part of the show to many people, including myself, before but the final two episodes especially got more explicit with the idea of this essentially as a tragic, gothic romance, including Bedelia and Will directly discussing Hannibal being in love with Will. Did it just feel like now was the time to be more overt with that conversation?


Fuller: Well it felt like it was -- it felt like they would be talking about it. It felt like he would ask that question. It wasn’t a strategy of “let’s wait and reveal this now,” it just felt, as we were writing those scenes, Will would ask that question because Hannibal’s behavior is indicative of someone who is obsessed and it seemed that Will would not be terribly bright if he hadn’t figured out there was some romance going on there. For me, Hannibal has always been a romantic horror story. Even from the get go of the series. I was fascinated by the idea of telling the story of a “bromance” between these two gentlemen that called into question how men relate to each other.




并不是说这一点在之前的剧集里对于包括我在内很多人来说不够明显,但在最后的两集里尤其明确地展现了这其实就是一个哥特式的爱情悲剧。其中比迪丽娅和威尔更直接谈论了汉尼拔爱着威尔的事情。你觉得这时候才是让这个对话更加直白的时机吗?


腐勒:嗯我觉得它——我觉得他们应该谈论这个。觉得他应该会问这个问题。这不是一个“让我们等等再让谜底揭晓”的策略,而是当我们描写这些场景时,就觉得威尔会问那个问题。因为汉尼拔的行为像徵着一个深深着迷的人,而威尔若是还没有发现其中的爱情成分,那他的头脑可就不太灵光了。对我来说,《汉尼拔》一直都是个爱情恐怖故事。远从我们得到开拍首肯时起。我着迷于这个想法,把这两位男士之间的“兄弟情(bromance)”讲述出来,从而引出男性之间彼此如何关联的问题。




IGN: When they go off the cliff, it’s Will who pulls them off. Do you think Hannibal is a willing participant in that and accepting of that or do you think that’s all Will in that moment?


Fuller: I think he’s surprised in the moment that it happens. I think he’s surprised that it happens, but then a millisecond later he’s like, “Of course, that’s what he would do.” Because earlier in the episode, Will tells Hannibal very plainly that his survival is not necessary for him to accomplish what he wants to do, which is to end Hannibal. And he said very early on in the season or it was said very early on that if he doesn’t kill Hannibal, he fears that he will become him and that comes back to haunt him in the Red Dragon arc and we see how much joy he actually does take from killing another man, side by side with Hannibal Lecter. It’s operatic and poetic and also sickening.


当他们落崖时,是威尔把他们拉下去的。你认为汉尼拔是自愿合作并且接受了这个,还是你觉得这全是威尔一手造就的?


腐勒:我觉得在发生的瞬间他是惊讶的。我认为这件事的发生使他惊讶,但转瞬之后他就想“当然啦,他会这么做的。”因为本集早些时候,威尔非常明白地告诉了汉尼拔,为了完成他想要做的——终结汉尼拔,他本人生还与否并不重要。在本季的早些时候他也说了,或者这在那时就被定下来了,如果他不杀了汉尼拔,他怕自己会变成对方。这在红龙篇里再度纠缠上了他,我们也看到了他从跟汉尼拔·莱克特携手杀死一个人中得到了多大的喜悦。这是歌剧般的、史诗般的,同时也令人作呕。




IGN: When Dolarhyde is going to kill Hannibal, there’s a great moment with Will calmly drinking his wine, watching this go down, because this is what his plan is. But then right before Dolarhyde stabs Will it looks like Will is reaching, like he’s going to pull a weapon. At that moment, might Will have changed his mind?


Fuller: Yeah, I think that in that moment… What Will was afraid of -- and the reason that he co-opted Dolarhyde into his plot, in as much as Dolarhyde felt that he was co-opting Will into his plot -- was Will’s fear was that when it comes right down to it, he cares too much about Hannibal to kill him but kill him he must.


在多拉海德准备杀死汉尼拔时,有个超赞的镜头是威尔冷静地喝着他的红酒,看着这一切发生,因为这就是他的计划。但在多拉海德捅他之前的瞬间,看起来好象是威尔伸手去、好像是他将要拿出武器。在那个时候,是威尔改变了注意吗?


腐勒:是的,我想在那个时候……威尔惧怕的——这也是他会把红龙拉进他的计划、同时也被红龙拉进自己的计划的原因——是当真到了那一刻,他对汉尼拔的重视会大到让自己无法杀死他,即使自己必须杀死他。




IGN: One small clarification I wanted to ask is Will and Jack come up with this plan -- well, Will first suggests it -- about using Hannibal as the bait but the one thing that we know that Jack doesn’t know is that Dolarhyde has already attacked and spoken to Will. Is it safe to say that Jack does not know that at all during all of this?


Fuller: Yes. Jack is assuming that Will knew exactly when he did, which is that Dolarhyde may have survived. The interesting part of Jack Crawford going along with the plan is that, if you remember in the Italian chapter, Jack says he didn’t kill Hannibal Lecter because he needs Will Graham to and that sentiment is still haunting Jack. I think in the back of Jack’s mind, he knows that it is highly likely that this is going to go off the rails. But when it does go off the rails, it’s also highly likely that Hannibal Lecter and Francis Dolarhyde and perhaps even Will Graham will be dead and all of those things are sadly acceptable in Jack Crawford’s mind.


我有个小小的需要澄清的地方。当威尔和杰克拟定这个计划——呃,是威尔先提议的——用汉尼拔做饵时,我们知道杰克对多拉海德已经袭击、并和威尔交谈过这件事毫不知情。我们是否能够下结论说杰克在整个计划中对这点仍是毫不知情的?


腐勒:是的。杰克认为威尔是和他一起得到这个消息的,多拉海德可能还活着。关于杰克同意在这个计划中合作的有趣的一点是,如果你还记得,在意大利篇里,杰克说他之所以没有杀死汉尼拔是因为他需要威尔去做,而那个念头仍然跟着杰克。我认为在杰克的意识深处,他知道这一切有相当高的可能性会失控,但当局势失控时,这一切又有相当高的可能性会变成汉尼拔·莱克特、弗兰西斯·多拉海德、甚至或许连威尔·格雷厄姆都会死掉。而让人难过的是,所有这些在杰克·克劳福德的意识里都是可以接受的。




IGN: Reba’s final scene was another where you got to really pull direct quotes from the book. But here, I was reading it as Will can also be projecting about himself, as he talks about what it might be like to have a serial killer in love with you. Was that in your mind too, given you had these great quotes from the book but that it could definitely be maybe be a bit more of an echo here, given the situation.?


Fuller: Oh, absolutely. It was a great synchronicity of events where everything that Will was saying to Reba in the novel actually applies to Will Graham in the television series. So there was the want of seeing that scene because I haven’t seen it in any of the adaptations where we get to see Reba, post all of this, and have a quiet moment between the two people who were in love with serial killers.


莱芭的最后一场戏也是你直接引用小说原话的情节之一。不过,我在这里的理解是,威尔在谈论让一个连环杀手爱上你的感觉时,同时也在影射他自己。你也是这么考虑的吗,手上有这些来自原作的精彩对话,但考虑到这个场景,那很可能不仅仅是单纯的引用……?


腐勒:哦,绝对的。小说里威尔对莱芭说的每一句话都可以用在剧集里的威尔身上,这是个绝妙的同步率。于是我有想要看到这一幕的渴望,因为我从没有在任何改编里见过经历了一切的莱芭,和这两位爱上连环杀手的人们之间的安静会谈。

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